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[Music]

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one of my beefs with 12-step is

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the inadequacy of the people you know

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leading other people it's one thing to

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you know I if you have a drinking

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problem I can tell you should probably

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quit drinking if you've got some

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psychological issues or trauma that

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you're not dealing with I am woefully

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unqualified to be treating that as our

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most yet that's you just hey sit down

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shut up and go to meetings do your steps

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everything's gonna be okay you know and

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it's like well then let me ask you as

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you sit here today and we're gonna get

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into all this eventually I want to stay

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on your story but as you sit here today

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what percentage of alcoholics do you

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think had trauma that they were

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addressing through drinking there are so

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few what I call garden-variety

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alcoholics who just started drinking and

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they like drinking late started drinking

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too much and there really isn't anything

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going on other than that what was

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created as they went along you know I

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mean like if they've had a DUI or lost

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their job as a result of drinking they

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kind of create their own trauma and that

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in and of itself is an issue too but

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most are there some sort of baggage and

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it's not doesn't have to be as serious

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as childhood sexual abuse or what have

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you can be you know the death of a

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mother or father or you know there's

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many issues usually probably something

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at a young age in in many case the real

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severe cases yeah that's what you'll

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find is there's something driving that

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the real you know the ones that you know

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chronic relapsing for 10 or 15 years and

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died of an overdose they just can't get

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it yeah there's nothing if you review

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the 12 steps there's nothing in the 12

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steps that would be something trying to

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discover prior traumas it's not in the

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12 steps yeah and I had some pretty

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Stern sponsors early on and that really

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annoyed me or it annoys me more now than

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it did then I just didn't know any

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different then you know you're dying on

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the inside so you're figuring all this

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has got to be what it is and like to do

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a fourth step and the eighth and ninth

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and I've always loved the way-ay-ay owns

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that stuff is I'm Catholic we've been

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doing confessions from the time I was

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eight years old on or whatever it is

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when you

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you know go through that I think Jews

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call it a tone man I mean it's not like

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it's anything special but for me to make

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I get cleaning up my side of the street

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I say I don't think there's anything

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wrong with that

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you know those if you want to calm

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Christian values or whatever they are

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there's nothing wrong with being a good

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person and cleaning up your side of the

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street and if I were you an apology

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apologize if all your money make make

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the amend there's nothing wrong with

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that but when you're getting ready to

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hang yourself because there's this huge

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conflict between well now I'm three

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years sober

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this shouldn't feel this way right

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because I've been sober for three years

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I'm doing all these things that they

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told me to do yet this is what I feel on

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the inside

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then nobody is getting to that issue of

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you know that that trauma for Allah or

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keeping it simple yeah one way I'd like

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to describe it it seems to me is the

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people are all just kind of white

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knuckling it together we're gonna hang

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in there together and we're gonna

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support each other because I know you

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feel like drinking and I feel like

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drinking too let's talk about it let's

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get it on the table and we're gonna

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we're gonna white-knuckle it together as

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opposed to doing something that's

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addressing the true underlying problem

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isn't that what you're pointing out dr.

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Lance DotA's talked about that in the

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film I don't know if it made it to that

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to the film itself I don't think it is

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but he talked about he does touch on it

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a little bit but he talked about if you

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put a built a wall around New York City

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and provided nobody made alcohol and

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there was no alcohol in New York City

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you wouldn't have any alcoholism right

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there's no alcohol there he says but

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you'd have a spike in you know online

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porn or gambling addiction or shopping

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you know if you're not treating it it

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just moves to something else and that's

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really common right so people come in

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and stop drinking right and then it pops

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up somewhere else because now we're in

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this abstinence based program that's not

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dealing with the real trauma and if I

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try to talk about it if I you know like

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a lot of times saying you have an issue

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with something at an AAA meeting

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what happens next it's like trying to

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take a sip of water from a firehose it's

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just like you know it's just it's

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overwhelming and none of its relevant so

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yeah well one of the points I like to

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make when you say that if alcohol wasn't

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there it'd be something else is one of

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the organs I use frankly for the

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legalization of drugs because I believe

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that people are already addicted to

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something the people with these addicts

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who

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are dealing with traumas there's plenty

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of things out there right now to get

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addicted to that are not good for you so

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so legalizing drugs I don't think is

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necessarily going to increase addiction

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they're already addicted to something

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that's very unhealthy I agree with you

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100% I really I get upset with the

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people that just want to keep marijuana

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cause it's gonna you know we we need to

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like fighting you know the war on drugs

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and fighting marijuana like my son told

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his mother he says if heroin was legal

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tomorrow would you start using heroin oh

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of course not well that's kind of the

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whole idea here as we spend so much so

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many resources you know just think the

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court costs incarceration

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you know from marijuana and things like

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that and even if you take heroin so they

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talked about fentanyl right

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you know this fentanyl is a problem well

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yeah the fentanyl is a problem why are

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the addicts going to the street with

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fire in their brains like Kennedy said

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you know looking for something and they

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get fentanyl and they die and we blame

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the fentanyl yeah I guess you could but

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if your treatment was so damn hot they

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wouldn't be screaming and going to get

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fentanyl so it's if we don't change and

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and and just to be clear applying a

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12-step treatment to a crystal meth

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addict or a methamphetamine addict or

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heroin addict

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if you prescribe if your only

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prescription as the professional is

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12-step you should lose whatever license

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you had to practice it's it's just that

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simple its its negligence that I think

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at the highest level yeah well one of

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the things that can be said for twelve

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strapped and I think that dr. drew makes

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this argument is that well at least it's

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free you know you can go to these

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meetings for free

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so how would America for instance do if

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really the issue is getting to childhood

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traumas or traumas in general which

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requires one-on-one psychological

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counseling can we afford it who's gonna

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pay for that that's what's really needed

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yeah but it's not happening in a a so a

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a just becomes a I'll give it its due

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like I've learned to say after we've

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screened the film in in groups where the

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you know the guns are loaded and they're

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ready to shoot at me after the film and

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we do the panels

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I'll always start by saying hey look I

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think a a is an all have been absolutely

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perfect for what it was designed for two

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guys were supporting each other through

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a common goal they wanted to quit

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drinking to that end it's been

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successful it's fellowship it's

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camaraderie it's you know we can do this

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together I think that's great it is they

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didn't they didn't quit drinking cuz

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they're because of a a because there was

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no a a so it's kind of a weird thing to

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say now that this is the intervention

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method is a a my director when he was

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making the film when he would question

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people he's a very he's a great

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storyteller he's very intelligent

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I remember he looked at me one day

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perplexed he says well near as I can

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tell

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if you quit drinking AAA works and that

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to me was the that that is the true that

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that's the same and I Meghan I maybe I

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made it in one of the episodes but you

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know their big thing is if you'll work

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the steps it works for people that work

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the steps it works it's like okay but

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what percentage work the steps it's a

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failure if ninety-five percent of the

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people don't work yourself that your

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steps don't work for them but yeah it's

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the essence is it's the same as saying

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if if you stop drinking it works they

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like to use diabetes as an analogy

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sometimes right and I like to use it too

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if like they you know type-2 diabetes I

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Josie talked about this right well you

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know if you diet and exercise and so on

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you can manage your type to die diabetes

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behaviorally right through diet and

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exercise I remember I asked dr.

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Finkelstein I he would talk about that

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and he would say if they could get their

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a1c under seven I'll I'll give them

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their medicine but if they can get their

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a a 1c under seven I'll work with them

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to maybe get them off their medication

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they can do it behaviorally I says

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that's fantastic right that's kind of

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like an a a program for somebody it's

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got alcoholism II will try to do it this

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way I says what happens when you apply

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that same like if you apply behavioral

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therapy to a type 1 diabetic you don't

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give him his insulin you tell him to you

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know go with diet and exercise

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well he'll die okay that's the issue

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we've taken a 12 day

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program and if you want to look at

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comparing alcoholism to opiate addiction

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or methamphetamine addiction I can't do

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a better analogy than you know

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alcoholism is the sprained ankle or the

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broken ankle and opiate addiction and

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methamphetamine is a cut jugular vein

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and you better treat those things

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differently or you're gonna wind up with

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the death rate that you currently have

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you know alcoholism is a much longer

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track right before it you know becomes

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yeah you go you can die in a drunk drunk

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driving or what not but opiate addiction

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and methamphetamine can take you much

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much quicker it's much more devastating

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so to treat those things when you walk

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into a treatment center and I love this

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one you get individualized treatment

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okay we have the same sleeping quarters

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we go to the same kitchen to eat we go

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to the same group lectures and we each

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get you know what two or three sessions

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of one-on-one a week how is that

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individual it's not it's just it's the

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words out there when we looked at it the

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you know the vernacular and they all do

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everything PSD eating disorders bipolar

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co-occurring disorders just look at any

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website that treats addiction they've

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got the magic wand there and the truth

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of the matter is they they do none of

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that with any success whatsoever but the

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people you say in a typical treatment

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center is treating all addictions if you

283
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look at most treatment centers and you

284
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like what they treat their hidden

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everything every drug I mean they're

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hitting you know methamphetamine opiates

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alcohol suboxone whatever are they

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giving you the one on one psychological

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counseling we found that with Betty Ford

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at that time when we were in looking at

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them and their and you know we we you

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know we showed them in the film hey

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thieves we're exposed but most places

294
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like that well you'll get one two three

295
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sessions one-on-one a week when we asked

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the public when we asked people where

297
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does the value lie in treatment like

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what what's you know like a bed is a bed

299
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right so it doesn't matter if your bed

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at home or your bed and treatment food

301
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is food right so you're eating

302
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those things don't have an impact on

303
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outcome you know group lectures I mean

304
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dr. Bill Miller made it very clear

305
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educational workshops people

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communicating information has no impact

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on outcomes and it's been proven time

308
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and time and time again yet what do you

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get when you get there because it's the

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biggest bang they get the most money you

311
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know they they can put you in a group of

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30 people and have somebody talking to

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you they're making money they got to

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give you one-on-one that gets a little

315
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costly which made us we working my

316
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directors confused he says I don't get

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it Betty Forex charge in a thousand

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dollars a day and they get to lectures

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and they go to some groups and they do a

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few other things in that city says you

321
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know a is free you can go to any for

322
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free but yet to charge in a thousand

323
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dollars are getting a reimbursed a

324
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thousand dollars a day for that so we

325
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could just so that's 30,000 a month is

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typical Betty Ford right at that hour

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last time we checked there over thirty

328
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thousand dollars reason it's 53,000 film

329
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because I got into a debate with my

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director I says well if you get a shared

331
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room it's it's it was thirty three

332
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thousand dollars when we checked that

333
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data but a private room was fifty three

334
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thousand and we had that verified how do

335
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they possibly justify that well going

336
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back to it Mike what my rap at all it's

337
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like if you're only benefit is

338
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one-on-one and if you talk to scientists

339
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right outside of medically assisted

340
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therapies it's the therapeutic

341
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relationship between the the addict and

342
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the therapist or the counselor right do

343
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I trust you do I believe you you know

344
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you can help me you know so on and it's

345
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and and it's the more you get of that

346
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you know is that's where the value lies

347
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is on one on one but it's what you get

348
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the least of so at fifty three thousand

349
00:13:05,319 --> 00:13:02,660
dollars a day and the reason we laid it

350
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beside the seniors care home is there

351
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:07,730
certain implied was tell people what

352
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:10,250
that was a thousand the seniors care

353
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:12,050
home it was we picked one of the most

354
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opulent seniors care home in Orange

355
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County I was in Laguna Woods or near

356
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Laguna Woods the Regency seniors care

357
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home when you walk in there it's Tamar

358
00:13:24,309 --> 00:13:22,399
before it is stunningly beautiful and

359
00:13:26,170 --> 00:13:24,319
opulent right you get your own

360
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one-bedroom apartment and when we laid

361
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out this is what people call assisted

362
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living yeah like a

363
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seniors retirement community or yeah I

364
00:13:35,940 --> 00:13:34,120
don't even know if they call that its

365
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assisted to to the degree that you get

366
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all these different workshops like

367
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there's a there's a spiritual workshops

368
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:41,800
there's adapting to a wheelchair and

369
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Walker and there's access to all kinds

370
00:13:49,020 --> 00:13:46,690
of facilities exactly four thousand five

371
00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:49,030
dollars a month and that is a for-profit

372
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:51,340
company and we got Betty Ford running

373
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fifty three thousand dollars a day

374
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running groups and workshops and we just

375
00:14:02,850 --> 00:14:00,670
nobody if you take and they're they're a

376
00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:02,860
nonprofit company you take the four

377
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:04,750
thousand dollars out like if you matched

378
00:14:09,090 --> 00:14:07,210
it with the seniors care home what's the

379
00:14:12,060 --> 00:14:09,100
other forty nine thousand dollars for

380
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:12,070
and is is any insurance pain for that

381
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:14,560
yeah lots of lots of insurance pays for

382
00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:18,130
that yeah so if I have my standard Obama

383
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:21,990
care insurance does it pay for that

384
00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:24,610
there's limitations and I think one of

385
00:14:27,180 --> 00:14:25,750
the other guests brought this up there's

386
00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:27,190
limitations on what insurance will cover

387
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:28,750
it's really related to what type of

388
00:14:33,690 --> 00:14:32,320
policy you have Obama yeah that's what

389
00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:33,700
we found out since the film is the

390
00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:37,240
insurance fraud so your Obama care will

391
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:39,150
cover addiction treatment to some degree

392
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:44,490
so to what degree again it depends on I

393
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:47,110
can't give you that exact at that exact

394
00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:48,610
number but there's access what they do

395
00:14:52,890 --> 00:14:50,950
is they'll verify what wet what benefits

396
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:52,900
this is what our investigators found out